Curse

phoenixtech · Sep 08, 2006, 05:39 AM // 05:39

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Originally Posted by JR-

If you want to farm a PuG guild to a high rank in the shortest time possible, Thumpers on Burning Isle with a Death Necro is the best way. Even when drunk.

That has more to do with problems in the ELO system than thumpway itself. If thumpway was so overpowered people would be running it in the GWFC where actual things of value were on the line instead of skill pins that gets you laid.

Patrograd · Sep 08, 2006, 07:03 AM // 07:03

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Originally Posted by phoenixtech

If thumpway was so overpowered people would be running it in the GWFC where actual things of value were on the line instead of skill pins that gets you laid.

No, tournaments dont work like that. You build against the team you are drawn against. If the other team knows you are likely to run thumpers they will just build against it.

Thumpers are overpowered in ladder play becasue when making a ladder build there are so many things you need to counter that you cannot 100% counter them all, so a powerful build like this is unlikely to be effectively neutralised by a balanced team.

JR · Sep 08, 2006, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

That has more to do with problems in the ELO system than thumpway itself. If thumpway was so overpowered people would be running it in the GWFC where actual things of value were on the line instead of skill pins that gets you laid.

It's the fault of the ELO system that we can roll 19 +1200 guilds in roughly six minutes each?

Hmm, no. There is a vast difference between ladder play and tournament play, and the build styles that benefit each. 'Thumpway' is ridiculous.

phoenixtech · Sep 08, 2006, 09:44 AM // 09:44

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Originally Posted by Patrograd

No, tournaments dont work like that. You build against the team you are drawn against. If the other team knows you are likely to run thumpers they will just build against it.

Thumpers are overpowered in ladder play becasue when making a ladder build there are so many things you need to counter that you cannot 100% counter them all, so a powerful build like this is unlikely to be effectively neutralised by a balanced team.

Which is exactly what I was trying to say, the build itself isn't "overpowered" it's just that it's a gimmick that overloads "balanced builds" that tries to counter 100% of all possible builds. The ELO ladder system rewords you for winning as many games as possible as fast as possible. There will always be high offence pressure builds that will try to overload "balanced" builds. What are we going to do? Nerf all high offence builds to force the game into "balanced" vs "balanced" contest?

Now, let's look at this theoretically. If the ladder system were changed so that you face a guild twice. Once on your home court, once on theirs, you think gimmick guilds can still "farm" rank?

JR · Sep 08, 2006, 09:59 AM // 09:59

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Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Which is exactly what I was trying to say, the build itself isn't "overpowered" it's just that it's a gimmick that overloads "balanced builds" that tries to counter 100% of all possible builds. The ELO ladder system rewords you for winning as many games as possible as fast as possible. There will always be high offence pressure builds that will try to overload "balanced" builds. What are we going to do? Nerf all high offence builds to force the game into "balanced" vs "balanced" contest?

Now, let's look at this theoretically. If the ladder system were changed so that you face a guild twice. Once on your home court, once on theirs, you think gimmick guilds can still "farm" rank?

a) The ELO system only rewards ladder farming in short seasons, really. There is a degree of that in longer seasons, but then if you want to be at the top you have to be active. In longer seasons ladder farming with a gimmick is FAR less effective though.

b) Thumpway is overpowered, don't even try and argue. It is not just a frontloaded pressure build, it is absolutely sick.

Minus Sign · Sep 08, 2006, 10:37 AM // 10:37

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Originally Posted by Undressed

Chill, maybe bad english on my side. I tend to read arguments like "go diversion, touch, cripple, degen, blind bla bla him and stop whining noob stfu kkthxbye". That's exactly not what the topic was about or I wanted to hear because it exists in every complaint-thread. I am not looking for counters to those builds, I've killed loads of them and got killed too of course. ;-)

The entire argument ends right there, actually. You know counters to these builds and have used them. GG; the delivery method of these builds is not overpowered if they can be countered with regualrity. You know their flaws; you know their strategy at a glance. Its a simple matter of increasing the counters to them in your team or using them to greatest effect.

In the end, Thumpers and Touch and...whatever else comes along to make its way in the ranger line will always be an IWAY. Powerful against bad groups, devestated by good teams and strategy. Accept the losses you gain from them as a healthy criticism: if the R/* gimmick team beat you handily, your "balanced" build has a flaw which needs work. If a player can't learn to adapt when they see them, consider teaching him or--more common--kicking him until he figures out how.

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Originally Posted by phoenixtech

What are we going to do? Nerf all high offence builds to force the game into "balanced" vs "balanced" contest?

Welcome to Guild Wars Guru. If it ain't balanced, its overpowered. I guess we'll all be happier when we're all running Whammos with wands because thats the only build left.

Nerfing should not be the Ban Hammer of popularity. Stop trying to make skills and characters useless just because other people don't play them the way you think they should.

Sidenote: as per usual; Anet, buff the eles. Longer season would be nice.

Patrograd · Sep 08, 2006, 10:43 AM // 10:43

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Originally Posted by phoenixtech

What are we going to do? Nerf all high offence builds to force the game into "balanced" vs "balanced" contest?

Well, I think many would argue that the best meta the game has ever had was exactly this, balanced builds were the strongest (I'm referring here to the old "gale wars" dual surge meta). Most people I think would welcome a meta where things like thumpers, dual smite, sbri and ranger spike had little or no impact on the top 50 of the ladder. For the game to be properly balanced, then surely a balanced build being run by the best team will prevail? If you can get to number one and stay there by effectively exploiting the ladder mechanic then the game isnt properly balanced imo.

Of course, the more skills and professions that come out, the less likely it is that we will see such a situation again, as balanced teams can only counter so much. Each expansion pack therefore strengthens the gimmick, one trick builds unless the professions and skills released with each expansion are so bland as to be unuseable in competitive play. This is further heightened by the complexitites of properly balancing skill combinations across 10 professions, a problem best illustrated by the farce that is dervishway's exploitation of Contemplation of Purity.

JR is right though, a longer season would help to reduce this somewhat, as ratings farming from a very high rating is very difficult to do as each defeat can take days to recover from, and ratings farm builds typically lose quite alot. This would be further helped by reducing the minimum ELO gain from 5 to 1 or alternatively preventing the possibility of a team playing a match against a team rated more than about 500 points lower than them (this is about the point where 5 points is the correct ELO gain for a win).

A longer season would do much to increase the staying power of builds which are just hard to beat and have a high win percentage (ie a balanced or tactical split build), as the impact of playing longer, and therefore fewer matches is felt much less keenly.

i8work · Sep 08, 2006, 10:55 AM // 10:55

I think thats just being nostalgic gale wars was almost just as stupid tbh. gale chains were just sick. Warriors with their lieutenant helms were unstoppable . Poor little monks surged into oblivion with signet of weariness huge aoe.

actually errrm, ok, lets go back to that.

Lets face it the ladder will always be used to farm whilst players wish to do it. what we should really do is ostracise the players who do it (like jr) :P. Cos we can be sure that ANet wont nerf thumpway correctly theyll just nerf the necro death line or something and make already shit skills except in certain circumstances even shitter.

Personally my guild discused running thumpway rather than balanced and we came to the conclusion that playing what we wanted to play was more important to us than rank, as a result we struggled against the meta for a bit, with builds that frankly couldnt stand up to the current pressure but were hoping that we have struck a bit of gold with our current build that can cope with the meta and give us the wins we so want.

minor · Sep 08, 2006, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Now we get to what i would say is the heart of the guild wars pvp spilt in ideas.
We have one side that wants everyone to be running pretty much the same thing the Gale wars meta as it was just called. This side is right in that with everyone running the same build it all comes down to player skill. Downside is its almost like playing checkers just repeating the same moves and skills over and over again and never seeing anything different(kinda like when everyone ran IWAY in the Tombs)

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The other side wants many varied builds,some of which are quite overpowered againist others. This is good in that its not just a rote playing same skills till they bore you to death. The downside is that the game breaks down to rock paper scissors with player skill meaning nothing.
Hopefully anet will keep the game in the middle ground of these 2 camps with a few varied builds but none that are too overpowered. Of course as we see here overpowered is in the eye of the beholder. Sorry if that wondered a bit

let teh e-arguement continue.........

Elite Chaos Warrior · Sep 08, 2006, 02:13 PM // 14:13

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Originally Posted by Minus Sign

The entire argument ends right there, actually. You know counters to these builds and have used them. GG; the delivery method of these builds is not overpowered if they can be countered with regualrity. You know their flaws; you know their strategy at a glance. Its a simple matter of increasing the counters to them in your team or using them to greatest effect.

Welcome to Guild Wars Guru. If it ain't balanced, its overpowered. I guess we'll all be happier when we're all running Whammos with wands because thats the only build left.:rolleyes

I agree, people in my opinion are beginning to want to nerf builds that aren't even over-powered, OR vastly used. I understand iway being a bitch, maybe vim, but when i see posts about nerfing thumpers or blood spike it just seems insane to me.

yesitsrob · Sep 08, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

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Originally Posted by Elite Chaos Warrior

I agree, people in my opinion are beginning to want to nerf builds that aren't even over-powered, OR vastly used. I understand iway being a bitch, maybe vim, but when i see posts about nerfing thumpers or blood spike it just seems insane to me.

I am currently laughing at the fact you think IWAY and ViM even compare to the power of thumpway.... what the hell do a bunch of HA scrub builds have to do with thumpway?

There are counters to thumpers, however, in the thumpway build, most of them are extremely impractical. Ward against Melee for example is going to get you completely slaughtered by Putrid Explosions, things like Spirit of Failure, Blinding Flash, Faintheartedness.. which are normal melee counters aren't going to do shit vs thumpers.

So your viable thumpway counters end up something like Water Snares, Ward Against Foes, AoE Curse Hexes (Shadow of Fear, Wreckless Haste) - it's 8 fricking melee people packing a ton of damage.. and there's aegis which is going to get your ass knocked down alot but it still prevents a lot of the damage - so while there are counters, there's actually not that many.

I've ran these gay thumper builds myself. and I agree that something is overpowered when you can roll a top 20 team with it in under 10 minutes, convincingly. I mean call me stupid but that doesn't seem right.... I don't want to be playing build wars

JR · Sep 08, 2006, 02:46 PM // 14:46

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Originally Posted by Elite Chaos Warrior

I understand iway being a bitch, maybe vim, but when i see posts about nerfing thumpers or blood spike it just seems insane to me.

I am not someone who would want Thumpers nerfed because I got beaten by them a few times, quite the opposite. I want Thumpers nerfed for the same reason I wanted SB/RI fixed; it makes the game a joke. You go in with thumpers or old SB/RI and you do not care who you face, you will probably roll them.

We played 25~ matches in one night with thumpers, 22 of them against 1200+ rating guilds. Out of those 22, we won 19 without even really trying. We lost one because of a drop I think, and the other two against teams with a ridiculous amount of defense. We played a LOT of those matches against top 50 guilds, and quite a few against top 30 guilds. And this was at the end of the season, where guild positions stabilize.

I am not bragging, I can honestly say it took very little skill to win those games. Strat calling consisted of "train monks moar" or "kill things plz"... It was ridiculous. Much like my experience with SB/RI when we did a 15 consecutive GvG run with it; fun at the time, but leaves you feeling pretty sadpanda afterwards that something can mess up a ladder so much.

The definition of a broken build in anyones book surely must be 'a build that gets you wins that your play doesn't merit, easily and frequently'. That about perfectly describes my experience with Thumpway.

Not that I necassarily think it is Thumpers that make that build so imbalanced. They are definately a contributing factor, but possibly not the definitive. If you made pet corpses unexploitable that would probably be a strong but subtle balance tweak, to make the Death Necro a little less powerfull. I don't think that would completely kill Thumpway, just maybe force people to change up what they bring.

phoenixtech · Sep 08, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Not that I necassarily think it is Thumpers that make that build so imbalanced. They are definately a contributing factor, but possibly not the definitive. If you made pet corpses unexploitable that would probably be a strong but subtle balance tweak, to make the Death Necro a little less powerfull. I don't think that would completely kill Thumpway, just maybe force people to change up what they bring.

Er, wouldn't it then be ALOT easier to make something like comfort animal take 2 sec to cast while reviving a pet or just fix the whole "backout" effect when pet dies thing back to where it used to be a more effective fix then what's been proposed in this entire thread?

JR · Sep 08, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

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Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Er, wouldn't it then be ALOT easier to make something like comfort animal take 2 sec to cast while reviving a pet or just fix the whole "backout" effect when pet dies thing back to where it used to be a more effective fix then what's been proposed in this entire thread?

That really wouldn't make too much difference.

Aejorii · Sep 08, 2006, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Strat calling consisted of "train monks moar" or "kill things plz"...

Somehow I can picture Rusty saying this lawl.
<3 rusty

I think Expertise is fine but the DPS from thumpers is just insane. Probably what I would change would be increasing the recharge of Tiger's Fury to 15 seconds, thus lowing the DPS and not giving a huge incentive to bring Beastial Fury copy during the down time.

Byron · Sep 09, 2006, 01:55 AM // 01:55

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Originally Posted by Evilsod

how in gods name would Tigers Fury even be usable costing 10 energy a time for a ranger on top of attack skills?

All the other IAS skills have serious drawbacks that mean caution has to be used or risk is somehow involved. TF, due to expertise, is really a spammable IAS, whose drawbacks are more or less negated since there exists at most 2 non-essential non-attack skills on a thumper bar. To be fair in a meta where melee characters exist for damage, I don't think it's asking too much for a 10 energy cost for an otherwise unstoppable IAS.

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Nerfing Tigers Fury will make it less useful in all builds and probably just ignored.

Yes, we all weep for IWAY.

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Just because people are using Bunny Thumpers in high end GvG means they get nerfed?

Sometimes skills are overpowered to the point they effect the playability of the game. Gale was such a skill, air of enchantment was similar, as was energy drain ways back. You would be handicapping yourself running a balanced team without a gale warrior or aoe smiter pre-nerf. Right now, to me, thumpers seem to be of the "exploit or be exploited" nature. You won't win them all running thumperway, but it's easy enough to win that it affects the status of the game, IMHO.

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Hell if they nerf Expertise and its still affective on a PvP front they probably won't care about PvE.

Very few PvE players go for efficient or effective builds - they just run what they like, anyway. Only farmers and/or runners are concerned with skill choice, and dolyak sig isn't going anywhere.

Evilsod · Sep 09, 2006, 02:58 AM // 02:58

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All the other IAS skills have serious drawbacks that mean caution has to be used or risk is somehow involved. TF, due to expertise, is really a spammable IAS, whose drawbacks are more or less negated since there exists at most 2 non-essential non-attack skills on a thumper bar. To be fair in a meta where melee characters exist for damage, I don't think it's asking too much for a 10 energy cost for an otherwise unstoppable IAS.

So what? In a particular build or at a particular time blacking out your none-attack skills could be considered particularly bad. At 6 energy every 11 seconds (with 14 BM or above) this is obviously a spammable skill. But so is Barrage, Needling Shot, etc. It was designed to be spammable for a high energy cost. It was also designed for a RANGER to use more effectively than other professions.

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Yes, we all weep for IWAY.

I couldn't give a toss about IWAY, but W/R Tigers Fury warriors w/o IWAY will completely vanish. IWAY itself will just morph itself again to cope until they just decide that you can't have more than 3 warriors in a team.

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Sometimes skills are overpowered to the point they effect the playability of the game. Gale was such a skill, air of enchantment was similar, as was energy drain ways back. You would be handicapping yourself running a balanced team without a gale warrior or aoe smiter pre-nerf. Right now, to me, thumpers seem to be of the "exploit or be exploited" nature. You won't win them all running thumperway, but it's easy enough to win that it affects the status of the game, IMHO.

Gale was obviously overpowered... AoE i never really saw before the nerf but from what i do remember barely anything changed. We're not talking about Ether Renewal Emos, the truly overpowered build that led to ER been nerfed to shit (in Anets true fashion) so is no longer useful.

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Very few PvE players go for efficient or effective builds - they just run what they like, anyway. Only farmers and/or runners are concerned with skill choice, and dolyak sig isn't going anywhere.

So? Expertise is perfectly ok as it is. If JR seems to be persisting that Thumpers are broken, why screw with a perfectly fine primary stat in an attempt to balance it? Perhaps we should tell Racthoh that 'Strength' is making his warrior too powerful and will be changed to 'Flower Power'.

Where exactly is the logic in pets not leaving exploitable corpses? Next you'll be telling me pets shouldn't be able to become poisoned or suffer bleeding. You can't just suggest a nerf that has absolutely no logic to it at all.

All i can see coming from this is Irresistable Blow getting nerfed and most likely making a swift exit from all W/ and /W builds.

Byron · Sep 09, 2006, 05:52 AM // 05:52

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Originally Posted by Evilsod

At 6 energy every 11 seconds (with 14 BM or above) this is obviously a spammable skill. But so is Barrage, Needling Shot, etc. It was designed to be spammable for a high energy cost.

The differences being, Barrage is elite, and needling shot is not exactly PvP effective. And, due to expertise, TF is not a high energy cost; rangers get a higher energy pool and one more pip of energy than warriors in the first place. You said yourself, 6 energy? For 150% damage on top of highly spammable +damage attacks, that is an unfair advantage IMO.

I've already seen some guilds bringing wild blow to counter TF and distortion spam.

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but W/R Tigers Fury warriors w/o IWAY will completely vanish.

Don't follow you here - W/R always pay the full cost of TF anyway (they don't have expertise). I use and have used W/R builds effectively in the past, and causing expertise to not trigger on stances wouldn't hurt TF warriors at all. It could also have some good effect on distortion, now that I think of it.

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Expertise is perfectly ok as it is. If JR seems to be persisting that Thumpers are broken, why screw with a perfectly fine primary stat in an attempt to balance it?

For all builds but thumpers, I agree with you. But I also agree with JR- that there is no easy answer to the problem.

Evilsod · Sep 09, 2006, 03:07 PM // 15:07

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Originally Posted by Byron

The differences being, Barrage is elite, and needling shot is not exactly PvP effective. And, due to expertise, TF is not a high energy cost; rangers get a higher energy pool and one more pip of energy than warriors in the first place. You said yourself, 6 energy? For 150% damage on top of highly spammable +damage attacks, that is an unfair advantage IMO.

I wouldn't call 25 Base Energy and 3 regen a high energy pool. In comparison to warriors it obviously is... but what isnt? 6 energy is the price a ranger pays if he has points in Expertise. 10 energy is the price all other professions pay. Wheres the problem? The backlash to Frenzy is that you take double-damage. The backlash to Tigers Fury is 5seconds deactivated non-attack skills. The 2 are obviously not equal... but 1 requires stats. to give it equal recharge-'kept up' time. A warrior can keep it up for a fairly long time using a zealous mod. Or keep it active when its needed.

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I've already seen some guilds bringing wild blow to counter TF and distortion spam.

I don't see how that matters. I can hardly see warriors focusing on Rangers and using Wild Blow purely to stop Tigers Fury... Distortion its obviously needed for.

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Don't follow you here - W/R always pay the full cost of TF anyway (they don't have expertise). I use and have used W/R builds effectively in the past, and causing expertise to not trigger on stances wouldn't hurt TF warriors at all. It could also have some good effect on distortion, now that I think of it.

That was aimed at the other methods of nerfing Tigers Fury. Like losing all adren or deactivating more skills or increasing its recharge. The whole point of this skill is that it can be kept up constantly if you have the energy to do so. A ran a Tigers Fury B/P ranger earlier in the tombs. What can i say, it worked like a charm. EXCEPT i had to drop all Wilderness Survival and use a Zealous Bow with any hope of keeping it up, making it cost 10 energy would make it a warrior skill, not a ranger skill.

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For all builds but thumpers, I agree with you. But I also agree with JR- that there is no easy answer to the problem.

There is no justification that expertise is overpowered due to thumpers. I could say that Critical Strikes is overpowered when i gain energy from Critical Barrage been able to fuel a non-stop barrage spam. Or that Soul Reaping is overpowered due to spirits dieing and giving energy. Or that Mysticism is overpowered, as proved by the D/Mo CoP Dervish. Its the same concept. There is no easy solution to Thumpers... without nerfing something they shouldn't do.

Byron · Sep 09, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

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Originally Posted by Evilsod

The backlash to Frenzy is that you take double-damage. The backlash to Tigers Fury is 5seconds deactivated non-attack skills.

Well, there is the problem - TF assumes that there are other skills on your bar. With a thumper, attack skills are the bar.

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The 2 are obviously not equal... but 1 requires stats.

Granted - but beast mastery has too many other perks (pet attacks/heals/stats) to justify Tiger's Fury's placement, IMO.

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I don't see how that matters. I can hardly see warriors focusing on Rangers and using Wild Blow purely to stop Tigers Fury... Distortion its obviously needed for.

Much like iQ did in the playoffs, I've seen European guilds running a linebacker type build, and in different varieties. The hammer KD-control buid is pretty famous at this point. Other varieties are starting to show, including one that interests me a lot - a sword warrior with wild blow, bull's charge, and perhaps hamstring. I don't remember ever seeing a melee class becoming such a problem that normal mitigation simpy wasn't enough.